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The second being outgoing, effeminate, civilized, very expressive, and more open. There is no compromise. I checked it out of the library and returned it halfway in.
That image pervades society and it affects us daily. I have lots of friends who admit they feel sheepish or intimidated around non-Asian girls, and all their wit and charm fly out the window. Hopefully we all start lightening up.
We feel it regularly here ourselves, in microaggressive actions towards my husband. For example, when he came back to his grad student office which he shares , the other students had moved his desk behind the door — without asking his permission — to give his most coveted window spot to another girl. Most foreign women who come to China have at least a BA, whereas until recently it was rare for Chinese people to get a higher education.
In China, just like in the US, guys feel awkward about dating a woman who has a higher educational level than they do. That was something that kept me apart from a man for a long time but we are going to try to get over that. However, because more and more young people coming to China to study, and more and more Chinese people going to the US to study, I think more young people will get a chance to meet and fall in love in a natural way.
More Chinese men than before are going to college, and Chinese salaries seem to be rising relative to expat ones. Problem 4 still remains, I guess, but I hope over time, people will become less prejudiced. I mean, there are more than half a billion men in China. Is it so hard to believe that some of them would be cool? Your experience as an American white woman in China, reminded me of my own experiences as a Japanese woman in her own country, Japan. They have a very similar family values in Japan, although I understand that the importance of family is emphasized more in China, as in Japan they often put their company they work for, or government first before family.
Much happiness to you and your husband, as well as his family who were able to see beyond the cultural and racial difference. Jocelyn, excellent post and MUCH appreciated. You might also want to check out Marguerite Duras, who wrote two very sensual books on the coupling between an Asian man and a young French woman.
The stares and comments were, at times, rather unbearable and my ex-fiance even managed to find himself in a brawl with a few Beijing officials after they made several rude comments about us while we were attempting to eat dinner in peace. The expectations of his family further complicated matters, as did his own feelings of inadequacy and the silly power struggles we had between us.
As we currently live in NYC, we very rarely encounter strange looks or comments- interracial relationships of all kinds are pretty commonplace here. Furthermore, he has been living in the US for the better part of his life and we thus share the same culture, language, etc. That stated, we recently took a trip to China together and encountered a multitude of problems nearly every day because of race- from a hostess at a restaurant assuming that I was a Russian prostitute simply because I was with a tall Asian man to being bombarded with questions by strangers on a 30 hour train ride to dealing with random comments about what our kids might look like.
From personal experience, they have been better conversationalists, more values-oriented, romantic and logical. I guess this is stereotyping just as some white guys assume that Chinese women make the best wives, but my experiences have definitely shaped my preferences. Hopefully more non-Asian women will give Asian men a chance instead of writing them off so quickly… Thanks again for writing this, and all the best to you and your husband!
Also many Asian men, especially after having kids, become much more family orientated and seldom frequent bars or go out, so you just have to know where and when to look. Speaking from personal family experience, a paternal great grandfather of mine, who was the scion of a rice merchant family in Hong Kong got into a spot of trouble with the police around the turn of the century and skip-a-hopped to San Francisco to escape the short arm of the law.
Five years later, he came back with an Irish American wife, who became his no. Ever since then, that branch of the family occasionally throws up some interesting caucasian gene markers followed by lots of family teasings. Ultimately, cultural barriers and obstacles are only an issue if both partners let it become an issue and stereotype only matters if you let it get to you, for it says more about their fear and ignorance than about yourself.
Culture is one factor. There may be a physiological factor. Consider the fact that many white women choose black men, but very few white men choose black women. One thing that made our relationship easier was that his parents were very modern and accepted the relationship early on.
Also, he lived in the U. As my boyfriend before we got married, we talked openly about our relationship expectations and cultural differences, and often when a conflict arose we would take a step back and talk about whether or not it was cultural. Who knows, you might enjoy it lots. I met my husband post-graduate age too! What a small world that my experience could speak to you as a Japanese woman in Japan.
Wish you the best with your American husband! I loved your post — what a touching and heartbreaking story of love in China. Thank you so much for sharing, and the best to you and your Filipino boyfriend!
I think, beyond the challenges presented by Western stereotypes of Asian men, it is unfair to generalize. MF and Shirong have nailed it, but other commentators are wrongly assuming their experiences are universal. I am part of a community of Sinified foreign women who are mostly happily married to Mainland Chinese men. It has much to do with that we are a bohemian crowd of artists, musicians, designers, etc.
In that it makes sense: She took two brief relationships with Chinese men and exploited them to reinforce the worst stereotypes of them. Chinese men have their relational challenges I should know — I have broken up with many , but so do all men, and those challenges are diversely individual, rarely the expected stereotype. This was a very interesting post for me, especially as I have recently started dating a Chinese man.
We have only been on two dates and I already can see some of the issues you have described. The other problem is the traditional gender roles. Sometimes I worry that he thinks he has to take me to nice restaurants to keep me happy and save face, something he can ill-afford.
I like him very much, and I will try and keep the communication as open and honest as possible to keep cultural issues like this from destroying our fragile and new relationship.
I cannot stand spitting, hocking loogies, nose picking, nail clipping, foot scratching, etc etc etc in public. Most Chinese men I know are fine with that. Andi- I hope you can take it from someone who has been there; if you can tell him exactly as you have in your comment here, and make compromises about who pays etc. After being married to a chinese national for 20 years this December , I can remember back when we faced similar things, but putting it out on the table gingerly really worked.
We still get major stares and whispers, but it bugs our kids more than us. Dial- Most of the chinese men I know would never do those things! BUT,,, considering the period of history that they got together, they copped some awful bigotry in Australia and Asia generally from Caucasian people — comments which I myself when hearing them as a teenager would have been willing to physically fight over.
When I told my friends that I would like to find a foreign gf, almost all of them immediately asked me how my parents were gonna say about this. I said my parents were okay with this and were actually highly supportive for they thought the kid s of such a marriage would be better-looking. I was a little disappointed. Besides, sex is allegedly a big factor. Because I hear stories where Chinese men failed to satisfy their foreign wives and Chinese men often feel inadequate when it comes to penis size.
But I agree with many of their comments and sympathize with them. But as one who is looking for a more serious relationship with a Chinese man, I thank you for having forged the path for us and hopefully showed people on all sides what an interracial relationship can look like.
Thank you for the post and the comments. Stereotypes, values, family preferences, all of it weighs in pretty heavily in China, dare I say more so than in the West. The good thing is that you got married for the right reasons. Personally, the best way I found to deal with them is to smile brightly and say a genuine great, big hello or Gutentag from myself or a ni hao from my girlfriend.
That usually gets them out of their reverie and cut short their whisperings. They are then either forced to smile back if they are friendly or scowl and scurry away if not and you can have a good laugh amongst yourself, but either way it breaks the ice and the tension. To the guys, irrespective of cultures, it pays lots, trust me on this to let your guard down and show your vulnerabilities, emotionally or otherwise once in a while, for you see sorry ladies women dig the strong enough to be vulnerable guy thing.
It has something to do with kittens and puppy dogs I think for all I know. Besides, what have you got to loose apart from a little funny awkwardness? Over here it seems there are not much problems like in China, I found many many foreign babes hooked up with our men, felt in love and marriage happily.
From my few experiences, dating white girls, one very annoying thing is that we would always be watched by others as a curiosity.
It was not permanent but it always happened. I have a lot cousins, and on 10 boys, only one is married to a white french girl, even though some have dated white girls for some time before ending with a chinese girl. Compare to the girls: It confirms the rarity of chinese men with white women, even outside of china. The flight from downtown Chinatown LA to the outer burbs after the Rodney King incident to the larger enclaves of Rowland Hts, Industry Hills and Rosemead, Arcadia, Pasadena served to broaden contact between 1st and 2nd Chinese immigrants and locals.
My cousin, who is Chinese, grew up in a very multicultural community with many dating experiences with non Chinese. He basically grew up color blind or rather non color selective. He eventually married a European girl, he met in Norway.
My experience was different. I grew up in a small town and did not date at all in highschool because nobody found me attractive or rather I felt not attractive to the general female population of the school. Only after I moved away and went to a large city, did I experience non Asian relationships. A serious relationship with a Puerto Rican girl brought up all the issues that several of the previous posts highlighted. I think that we both saw what a big issue our cultures were even though they were both family oriented and patriarchal.
I ended up marrying a Taiwanese girl mainly due to our commonalities. I like Chinese culture, I am proud of its language and history. I think that the Chinese males that are in mixed race relationships bespeaks the confidence that they have in themselves and of their partners. It definitely is tough going but as the saying goes- Love is blind.
When living in Taiwan I had two long term Taiwanese boyfriends. One was a racist prick who had all these assumptions he had made of what it would be like to have a foreign girlfriend and made it clear to me the day I told him to get out of my house that we could never marry or have any future plans because he had to marry a Chinese woman because that was what was proper.
The other was wonderful but tended to get tired of all the shit he heard about him dating a foreign woman. Then there is the assumption that white women do not like Asian men, which makes it hard to date because many men just discount us as unobtainable. And of course the stupid completely false stereotype that Asian men have smaller penises makes many a foreign woman disinterested. Wow, I am truly amazed by how so many of you have shared such deeply personal experiences.
Thank you so much for joining the conversation! A real woman knows that you can be pleased sexually in different ways. They lack passion as well.
Now being with an asian man I learned a lot about the sexual side of me. I thought something was wrong with me for a very long time.
I could never have an orgasm until I met an Asian man. I very quickly upon arrival in Taiwan quit hanging out with expats. They were gross to me with all their levels of bigotry and innate belief that they were better than the locals on so many levels.
They all had their local wives but could not fathom a foreign woman liking a more gentle, less retardedly macho local men. The irony in all this is that the more I was chastised for dating local men, the less likely I was to touch one of those expats with a 50ft pole. A few others did so in very uneducated and ineffective ways. The big thing any Western woman who wants to date a Chinese man has to understand is that your pool of suitable mates is probably much smaller than that for Western men who want to date Chinese men.
The nasty disgusting stinky breath is real … and it is a problem. The smoking is real … and it is a problem, especially for the vast majority of American women. No magic wand can make reality go away. The truth is that those issues exist. That means the numbers a Western woman has to choose from in the social manners and acceptable hygiene departments, alone, are already small. When you add in the family and social pressures, it is almost not worth it to pursue Chinese men. At least with Chinese men, or other Asian men, who were born or raised in Western countries, they share the same set of social and hygienic values as most Western women.
That means the biggest barriers to a relationship will already be taken care of before you have ever even said hello to each other. Social standards will not change in China until someone makes an effort to educate people.
My advice to Western women who want to date Chinese men, or other Asian men, is to do so in your own country or other Western countries. If you insist on looking for one in China, you might have to experience a lot of disappointment until you get lucky, at least until someone is brave enough to push China to bring its social and hygienic habits into the same stratosphere as Western countries.
In any relationships, particularly when one begins to spend any significant amount of time with each other, there are bound to be things, including personal habits, that begin to grate. I sincerely hope you have the opportunity and the potential to grow up and mature into a better person that is capable of seeing beyond the superficial or initial reaction and intolerance that so often dazzle and confuses our life in this modern era. May be it is just begining foreign girl with chinese guy ….
I was just welcomed in and treat like any other girl of any other ethnic origin would have been. There are cultural differences, but I think the reason our relationship works so well is that there is a lot of give and take on both sides.
I take on some of his cultural customs, and he takes on some of mine. Thanks for sharing your experience. It sounds like you have a perfect balance in your relationship. And to be together in Taiwan! Anyway, anyone would be stupid to reject people of any race out of hand.
Of course, just refer to Long Duk Dong from 16 Candles to see something shocking from just a little before my time. Feh, the point of a kung fu flick is to kick butt, not provide sentimental hogwash. But anyway who cares? I am an ok dancer. Never danced much, but have some talent and pick up moves fast. Back home I am a mediocre player at best, but out here I live in China I fare pretty well against Europeans. But I met Germans who were chaos impersonated and the life of the party.
My point is that generalizations and stereotypes come from somewhere. If you meet enough people within a group say, people from the same country , you start to have an idea of similar traits good and bad that a lot of these people have. If enough people from your country meet enough people from the other country, these generalizations start forming stereotypes. Many of the stories confirm the stereotypes including the size one and others deny them including the size one.
In the end, stereotypes might give you an idea of traits that people from a certain place might have, but they cannot define an individual. Some of the stereotypes about the Chinese even contradict themselves! Think of the martial artist versus the nerdy guy. When two people in this world find each other and have a connection.
All the life experience, culture, prejudices etc. But what happens later on is about the individual themselves and how they deal with them. Sure, you need to learn the language and it takes time. But in China, I know people who have been here for years and years, speak fluent Chinese and barely have any Chinese friends. I remember going to a music festival here in Beijing once and seeing hundreds of cool Chinese people. I said to a friend: Something similar probably happens in Chinese communities overseas.
Why should I have to teach someone how to act? These are things he should learn as a child and no one should have to be the mother of a grown man. If an adult is doing things like these, he will never change because it is too late as those behaviors are ingrained deep inside him. There is nothing shallow, immature, or superficial about expecting a grown adult to have common decency.
I went out with a Chinese guy once who spit on the floor at KFC. I recoiled in disgust and he acted like nothing was wrong. I calmly explained that we were in a restaurant where people are eating and doing that was totally unacceptable. He said okay and then spit on the floor again less than three minutes later.
I got up and walked out immediately. These are the things that civilized people learn as children. It is not too much to ask for someone to have decent public manners. I hope you are not going to get all over-sensitive now and start lashing out at foreign countries, or foreign cultural standards, or something like that.
The things I mention are a problem. A very big problem. I hope the foreign women looking for Chinese men can find the Chinese men who do not do those behaviors. But it will not be easy.
I know no one wants to talk about it. The only answer is a lot more education about manners and hygiene. True, not all Chinese guys spit, hock and do other disgusting things.
But a lot of them do, here in China. If she really did go out on a date with a Chinese guy who did that, it indicates she is not contaminated by bad stereotypes and probably people were unfair to her. I did notice an excess of political correctness here.
But it is HUGE on a personal level. The hocking IS gross. Part of it, I think is a generational gap. When I see the spitting etc. I rarely see the younger men doing it. Kindly do not attribute words to myself that are extrapolation and projection of your own personal sensitivity and level of maturity, irrespective of your age. My experience is that personal attraction and curiosity does the darndest things to people, often resulting in the unlikeliest of partnerships and friendships.
She has a primness to her that I initially found endearing though occasionally insufferable, but which later mellowed as we dated since she and I came to appreciate our differing perspectives.
By contrast my ex-German girlfriend proved most tediously argumentative and overly politically, which while initially intellectual stimulating, became wearily frustrating especially when all I wanted was a simple cuddle after a long day. And so on it goes. Of course not, for it reflected the formation process of my own preferences, yet conversely also the slow erosion of my prejudices as I learned to see people beyond the superficial and appreciate them for what they are and their potential.
In all cases I was glad that I overcame my initial dislike and got to know every complex one of them better for what they are. So the question is what prompted you to go out on a date with him in the first place? To clarify something, I have not said that ALL Chinese men publicly spit, hock, nose pick, butt dig, have stinky breath, smoke, shoot snot rockets, or cough without covering their mouths. I made it a point to say that not ALL do those things. But the sad truth is that MANY do those things, including a lot who are in their 20s and 30s.
I guess they pick it up from older men because they do not know better. For the record, I have even hung out with Western educated Chinese guys who did not do those things when they were in other countries, but reverted back to such behavior when they returned to China. Give me a break! It is called will power. They are too lazy to control themselves or teach to others anything proper. This is not an attack on China either. People know about the main stereotype of the French.
Many folks in places like India are known for not being attentive to body odor. I am sure there are other areas in the world with stinky breath and other kinds of problems. But this blog is specifically about things that can keep Western women and Chinese men apart so I am addressing one of the biggest issues. Wanting all people in every country to have a basic standard of cleanliness and manners is not superficial. It is something that should be normally expected.
Please do not hide behind cultural differences because saying that is an excuse for not acting. All people with some education should teach those who do not know.
If someone spits by your feet, speak up. If someone coughs in your face, speak up. SARS was a perfect opportunity for a mass education campaign to stamp out spitting, hocking, and uncovered coughing. A-H1-N1 is about to present another perfect opportunity. Will China step up and seize the initiative while the epidemic rages in full force? Leave the excuses behind! I agree that, unfortunately, there are a lot of Chinese men with undesirable habits — spitting, smoking, hocking, etc.
It certainly is a barrier to relationships. The many bad apples out there will often blind us to those one-in-a-million guys who really do exist in China. I have met some extraordinary men in China — men who were more gentlemanly, gentle and caring than anyone I ever dated in the US and, I might add, men who do not smoke, spit, hock, have bad breath, or even drink. If I had decided that all men in China were disgusting, I would never have given myself the opportunity to know them, which would have been an incredible loss.
As for the change you mention — yes, it is important to demand change, and I hope China changes everyday. Yet keep in mind that China is a very large country with shockingly large gaps between the wealthy and poor.
And on the other hand, being wealthy in China can often be an obstacle to change. In some cases, these people even have no shame at all I have seen government officials and elites, all men, who once talked blatantly about their mistresses and lewd sexual behavior right in front of me, at the dinner table.
People in China need to reclaim a sense of shame regarding their behavior in public, on many levels. Everyone tells me to get a Chinese boyfriend, but in reality, it seems that very few are open to that idea.
Which is a shame, because I certainly am. Thanks for stopping by and posting a comment! Susan, The first and second comment are not correct at all. Good luck to you! May i just add one more point to what Susan had mentioned about Chinese men, a lot of us are good chef at home too: Food is a such important part of chinese culture that cooking is not just the responsibility of women.
I bet most of the chinese men feel the same about you. Grow up, you have a long way to go. When I was 22, moving to America was not an easy quest for me, I was considered skinny at lbs. I could not get most American girls to go on a date with me. My point is, people will always have their first impression from your outer appearance, and sometimes, you might just need to let them have it before they even get a chance to know the real you. I can say from my personal experience, even after my transformation on my image the macho look , many white women still keep their distance from me.
This is mostly because of the race issue. For some reason, more white men can easily accept Asian women than a white women can accept Asian men.
I can accept racism but I refuse to believe Chinese men are less than western men in any way. Not even handsome vs. If I could get a Chinese guy to make a move I would be so happy. Part of it is they seem intimidated. As to other expats guys! The second night I was in China, one guy asked me if I would date a Chinese guy and when I said yes, he accused me of having a fetish for small penises.
What about the rampant adultery? Not only is adultery fairly common, it seems almost socially accepted and mandated. Has this been a problem for any of the couples?
Perhaps it also happens that plenty of racism in China exists toward foreigners living in the country. Can anyone explain it maybe they have already? Maybe, is it due to the lack Asian men presence in the media? Re Andrea, the problem of rampant adultery is not true even though the things appeard. At least the mainstream culture can not accept it. These historical wounds still haunt many Chinese mentally.
What Stan said is true, I believe most Chinese men have hard time to let women pick up their tab on a date. Casual dating with foreign girls is just not common in China, on top of that, i think basic communication can be another issue, how many foreign girls can speak fluent chinese and how many chinese men can speak fluent english in china? This issue alone can eliminate almost majority of the potiential dates.
I also think that bias against asian men do still exist which makes the matter even more complicated, because it becomes more than just about dating, it becomes a issue of race and chinese certainly do not take it lightly.
On the mistress issue, I have to agree with Steven Chao. While I have come across some circles of men in China where mistresses are in the picture — these are often the powerful bosses, or officials, or men in high positions, usually 40, 50 years or older. Not your typical guy, and certainly not the kind of guy most of us would end up dating or marrying anyway.
Yes, this discussion is interesting. But I still think that the main obstacle here is how closed the Chinese society is. Because in the end it ends up playing a role in the language barrier as well. And, by not engaging very much with a lot of Chinese people, the mixing just becomes a bit more complicated. I agree Chinese society is closed. But if this were the main reason why there are so few Chinese men dating or marrying foreign women, you would see the same pattern with Chinese women dating or marrying foreign men.
Still, it is possible to overcome the barriers — and doing so largely depends on how you approach your experience in the country, and the kinds of experiences you have.
When I first came to China, I knew almost no Chinese — just a few survival phrases, and basic numbers. But I was curious about China, and interested to learn. In the process, I made some amazing Chinese friends, who spoke English and became my own teachers — teaching me about the culture around me. If you live in China as a foreigner, you always have the opportunity to have contact with the culture.
Of course I meant my experience in China. You seem to put the blame on foreigners who stay in their comfort zones. But these people still hang out with foreigners much more than with Chinese. Actually, we accept them as one of our own.
So yes, I do put some of the blame on the Chinese society. But I am not blind to our flaws and I did have a very good welcome when I lived in Germany. I apologize if I sounded as though I was putting so much blame on foreigners. I can understand where you are coming from, given your experience in Brazil, and observing foreigners integrating quite flawlessly into the culture.
You are right that it is not easy in China for foreigners. I too have had moments of alienation in China. And perhaps I am an anomaly — having family ties to the country brings me so much closer to it.
If you put an effort into it I believe the Chinese society is pretty open. But I kind of have a good starting point: I live in a totally Chinese area in Beijing, no other westerners is living here. I have been very welcomed here. Yet, the great majority of their friends seems to be foreign. It makes it much easier for a foreign guy to chat up a Chinese girl in a random social setting e.
On the other hand, some Westerns girl would need a real connection to a guy to fall for him. That requires a lot of interaction. Point being, it just decreases the chances a western girl has of meeting those amazing Chinese guys out there. This is a complex issue, and all factor raised play a role in each individual case.
As it has been pointed out in other comments, some really have a problem with feeling superior to the Chinese. I think one of the reasons that western women are often thought to be rich, even when they are actually not, is because they are typically a lot more exposed to the consumerism that is dominant in western culture.
By that I mean they tend to spend their money more generously and liberally than their Chinese counterparts. Fresh-off-the-boat Chinese FOBs, e. And they expect their girlfriends maybe not girlfriends, but certainly their wives to be economically prudent, too. I know for a fact that I would not be able to independently afford a marriage with any of a number of sorority girls that I know on this campus, even if I could secure the highest paying job available for a normal college graduate.
Another problem that I have encountered is religion. When I came to the states, I landed in a historically white fraternity in a state right in the Bible belt. Methodist, Baptist, Catholicism, Presbyterianism, Mennonite, etc. Even a Jewish professor tried pretty hard at one time to sell me his theology, and I thought Jews always kept their religion private from non-jews. A lot of protestant Christian groups on campus deliberately and actively target FOB Chinese students, which can be quite disturbing and annoying.
On the other hand, for a lot of people here, atheism is rather controversial, to say the least. So it just never worked out seriously with any girl of religious convictions. And those ladies who are sufficiently secularist are usually too smart to involve themselves with fraternity boys.
You say something about Western consumerism. I have to say that many a Westerners has been shocked about the materialism of China. About religion, that depends on the place.
You have to understand the culture of the place you are in. I think one big reason you see so few Chinese men with foreign women is what that taxi driver alluded to. At least that fear is what stops a lot of Chinese guys from trying a relationship with a foreign woman.
Please keep up the great posts! Great to hear from another Western woman who has discovered the joys of marriage to a Chinese man! When you find the right guy, they really can make exceptional partners, for all of the qualities you described all fitting my husband as well. It said 27 percent of mixed marriages comprised of Chinese men and foreign women — up from a few years before that. More than 60 percent said that it is normal to see mixed couples and 35 percent said that for a Chinese man it is very romantic to marry a foreign woman.
The newspaper did not provide information as to the men women ratio among the more than 10, interviewed. Until several years ago 90 percent of the mixed couples were composed of a Chinese woman and a foreign man. Now the percentage of the unions of Chinese men and foreign women has increased to 25 percent of the total.
Unfortunately these marriages do not seem to stand the test of time and according to a poll carried out in Shanghai 60 percent of the mixed marriages celebrated in the period have ended with divorce.
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